Torah Teacher hosting this online Midrash: Judah
- Is circumcision still applicable today?
- Are there scriptural references in the new covenant for circumcision?
- Is circumcision for everybody?
- Is circumcision in the heart or in the flesh?
Remember our motto: We Inform You Choose
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Torah's command is to do the Festivals. How will you eat the Pesach Ceder if you are not circumcised and theTorah forbids eating the meal as uncircumcised...
ReplyDeleteIsn't circumcision of the "Heart"?
ReplyDeleteBoth Torah and Brit haDashah require circumcision of the heart and that involves females as well. Torah requires Brit Mila for males to partake in the Pesach. But Brit haDashah doesn't require that for gentiles. You could make the case that gentiles are no longer gentiles when they come into the covenant but the bigger question is: Is the Brit Mila just a visible sign? If a Hindu pediatrician performs it in the hospital for the wrong reasons, does it count?
ReplyDeleteDear brother Ro Ri, how will the gentiles get into Jerusalem then dureng the Messianic Age as Scripture clearly defines that no uncircumcised will enter Jerusalem:
ReplyDeleteThis is YHWH’s word for the Thousand Year Reign:
Eze 44:5 And the LORD said to me, "Son of man, mark well, see with your eyes and hear with your ears, all that I say to you concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD and all its laws. Mark well who may enter the house and all who go out from the sanctuary.
Eze 44:6 "Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, "Thus says the Lord GOD: "O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations.
Eze 44:7 When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary to defile it--My house--and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations.
Eze 44:8 And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My sanctuary for you."
Eze 44:9 Thus says the Lord GOD: "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.
And
Isa_52:1 God Redeems Jerusalem. God Will Restore Jerusalem. Awake, awake! Put on your strength, O Zion; Put on your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city! For the uncircumcised and the unclean shall no longer come to you.
Circumsision was there in the Old and and will be in the future, why not now in the the middle of the two periods? And doesn't it include the Gentile as well? Or how will the Gentile enter? Does YHWH has two set of rules, one for Torah and one for the Gentile?
Dear brother Israel, flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of Elohim. In the new birth from the water and of the Set-Apart Spirit we acquire a new inner man in the likeness of our Lord and Messiah at His resurrection. This is flesh and bones and incorruptible but not flesh and blood corruptible. It is with this sanctified new incorruptible body and with the circumcision of the heart and of the new resurrected body that we may enter Jerusalem and the Holy Temple. This rule works for both the Jew and the Gentile as our Master Yshua informed Nicodemus who knew only the natural birth and the Brit Mila of the flesh and blood corruptible body. Let me know if I have expressed my ideas clearly enough. Shalom
ReplyDeleteThe question is, do you believe the prophets?
DeleteThen you must answer if you believe what Y'shua said Himself in John 5:46-47?
John 5:24 say that we have to believe all His Words as all came from YHVH?
Now, do you believe Isaiah's prophecy, do you believe in the prophets?
This seems to be a different question from that which Israel asked and the answer is of course I do. I do not see why my response to Israel would seem to anyone to be in contradiction to the words of Yshua or of any prophet. Actually, what I posted is what Yshua Himself explained to be the crux of these issues to Nicodemus. He taught him that you have to be born from above. And of course after being born again from above you are circumcised in the heart from above (Deut 10:16 & 30:6; Jer 4:4). Nicodemus was already an outwardly circumcised man. So, if what you are saying is that we need the Brit Mila in the flesh of the corruptible body of flesh and blood which can not inherit the kingdom of Elohim, to enter the Temple in the millenium after our resurrection my answer is NO! I don't think that this is what the prophets are referring to. Furthermore, there is an interesting usage of the words in the hebrew for the word "people" in Joshua 5:4-6. It uses "am" and "goy" Traditional Jewish teaching (both rabbinical and karaite) teach incorrectly that "am" is exclusively used for "am Israel" meaning those circumcised and "goy" for the uncircumcised pagan gentiles. But here in Joshua 5:6 we have the usage of "goy" for the people (men of war age) that came out of Egypt who were evidently circumcised outwardly in the flesh because they participated in the first Passover and because verse 5:5 explicitly says so. Why did all this circumcised men of war age (except for Joshua and Caleb) are also called "goy" and why were they all consumed in the wilderness and didn't enter the promised land? Because they obeyed NOT the Voice of HVHY as verse 5:6 explicitly tells us. They had the outwardly visible sign of the everlasting covenant but they didn't have (except for Joshua and Caleb) the inward circumcision of their hearts. So, the inward circumcision of the heart in the incorruptible inner self acquired after the new birth trumps the outwardly circumcision of the flesh in the corruptible body of flesh and blood.. Now, do you believe in Joshua 5:4-6? Do you believe Yshua's words to Nicodemos? Do you believe in the following Pauline teaching?
DeleteRom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
1Co_7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Eph_2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Php_3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Col_2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Yes!! It is a SIGN of the covenant FOREVER! The prophets write that NO man uncircumsised in Heart AND flesh will EVER enter His presence/sanctuary.
ReplyDeleteEz 44:7 In addition to all your other detestable practices, you brought foreigners uncircumcised in heart and flesh into My sanctuary, desecrating My temple while you offered me food, fat and blood, and you broke My covenant. 8 Instead of carrying out your duty in regard to My holy things, you put others in charge of my sanctuary. 9 This is what the Sovereign Hashem says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.
Excellent noted Izel
Deleteif it was good for Yeshua it is good enough for me
ReplyDeleteIn Genesis 17:12-14 The sign of the Covenant is to be circumcised on the EIGHT DAY! This is the only guarantee that the soul will not be cut off from the covenant. This is why Yshua said that the Sabbath is broken for circumcision, because even if it the eight day of life lands on Sabbath it may not be postponed. The parents are responsible for fulfilling this commandment. This is why Moses, and not his son, was going to be killed by HVHY in Exodus 4:24 although Moses was already circumcised as can be inferred when pharaoh's daughter saw him in the floating basket and recognized his hebraic descent. This commandment to be circumcised on the EIGHT DAY is also self evident in the Yehudim's halakhot and further discussion held at the apostolic Beit Din on Acts 15:13-19. The Yehudim's motion was soundly rejected and defeated in its application to the gentiles that were just coming to the faith. The sentence was given by none other than Yacob, brother of the Messiah and Nasi of the apostolic Beit Din. The OJB reads Act 15:1 "And some men came down from Yehudah to Syrian Antioch and were teaching the Achim b'Moshiach that if you lack the bris milah as prescribed by Moshe Rabbenu, it is impossible for you to come to Yeshu'at Eloheinu." this is not an invitation to fulfill the Brit Mila and come to the faith. The Yehudim were saying, if you WERE not circumcised on the EIGHT DAY you are not from Yehudah and thus CAN NOT come to the Salvation (Yshua) of Eloheinu. You can argue that Abraham and Ishmael and Moses son were circumcised on other than the EIGHT DAY. Fair enough, but is Ishmael in the covenant? I guess not! Do we hear of Moses son's lineage in the covenant? Evidently not! We read of Aaron's lineage but Moses lineage is non consequential. The EIGHT DAY circumcision stipulation was required to ascertain the male child was brought up and raised in the Torah since that early age and made the parents responsible before the Lord. Isaac was circumcised on the EIGHT DAY Acts 7:8 Luke is very careful in recording Yshua's circumcision on the EIGHT DAY Luke 2:21. Paul gives an account of being circumcised on the EIGHT DAY Php 3:5. There was a second halakhot motion presented to the Apostolic Beit Din Acts 15:5. This second motion pertaining gentiles who had just come into the faith was brought up by some of the Perushim (Pharisees) who had believed in Yshua. This halakhot was also stayed because it would require to police how well the Torah was being kept by the gentiles and would hinder the communion of the circumcised with the uncircumcised from there on. So, the Apostolic Beit Din ruled that gentiles coming to the faith shall abstain from idols, fornication, eating strangled and/or blood, This way the gentiles can come and go and have communion in the assembly and thus hear and obey the Torah as it is read every Sabbath. We are certain that those who were born in the wilderness were not circumcised on the EIGHT DAY until Joshua (5:5) circumcises them prior to conquering the land. There is also the account of the circumcision of Timothy while already an adult Acts 16:3. People, that will be born during the millennium will be circumcised on the EIGHT DAY. People fortunate to be included in the upcoming resurrection will receive a glorified body in the likeness of our Messiah's in His resurrection. This heavenly body will already be circumcised.
ReplyDeleteRo Ri, we must remember in context who Sha'ul and the others spoke to.
DeleteThe prophets state clearly, to enter the Kingdom you have to undergo the B'rit Milah (Covenant of circumcision), the B'rit Chadashah will not and cannot contradict that, as their teachings come from the Tanach.
Therefore, Scripture says, if a Yahudim (the circumcised) has undergone the B'rit Milah, it does not do good for his salvation, as none of the Torah will be good for the salvation. Why? Because the Torah will show us love (Rom 13:10), and Yeshua stipulated that by saying if we love Him, we will "maintain" (keep) His Torah. Thus the Torah is not the "root" of our salvation, but the "fruit" of our salvation.
Of our fruit He will judge us, as he is the "Lawgiver" (the living water and the light). It is our choice to take the "water" and "light" to "survive" and the result is giving good "fruit" and not to "die" and then be "cut down" and thrown into the "fire".
Sha'ul had to go to the "gentiles" (the uncircumcised) and he had to go and spread the Word to them, therefore he also said to them that no B'rit Milah can save them, which is the truth, but only by their faith, which is believing in the Messiah. First the "heart" must be circimcised (take the "heathen" out of the heart, cut it away, and have "clean flesh" by worshipping Yeshua alone), and without that circumcision means nothing.
Now therefore the "heart" must be "circumcised" first, and then the "flesh" must be "circumcised" (as the prophets and Torah says) to enter the Kingdom. When your heart is given to Yeshua, you will then, out of love, obey His Torah and be circumcised.
Hope this explanation helps Ro Ri.
Shalom
Levi, thanks for your reply.
DeleteI do not think that I made myself clear with the fact that the circumcision was required on the EIGHT day or else you were cut off from the covenant. this was a parental responsibility and it ensured the boy was raised and educated in the Torah and the scriptures.
There is no way around the EIGHT day stipulation or else.
I also expressed that in the millennium the resurrected body of Flesh and Bones that we have received in the inner man has all the required circumcision of the heart and wherever is needed. Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
Thus, the resurrected will enter the temple. Any new born during the millennium will be circumcised on the EIGHT day according to the commandment.
I hope this helps, Levi.
Shalom. . . .
It is actually evident that circumcision was also a near eastern cultural practise to "belong to a tribe". Even The Islamic religion also considers the Old Testament to be a viable textual authority, and some do adhere to the covenant God revealed to Abraham. My point is;
ReplyDelete1. Do we know why circumcision is specifically important?
2. Is it different to other cultures?
If circumcision is a sign of the covenant, does this mean it is only a sign for the men? Should women not have a sign that they also belong in the covenant?
ReplyDeleteWoman have one, its just not written down. Its a covenant of blood. Every month a womans womb get sprinkled with blood, making it sacred for the meeting with YHVH, which is where He performs the miracle of new life, if all the "elements" are compattable. A woman during menstruation is seen as unclean and must be sepparated, but most men miss it, it is not uncleansiness, it is YHVH establishing the covenant which he made with all women, the covenant of life. Men should just not interfere there, its YHVH's time with woman. It is the covering He gave women. YHVH took Abrahams covering away so that He could take full responsibility fo the offspring, He became the covering?
ReplyDelete